Genesis who?
If you don’t know what Genesis is, you’re very likely not a Poser or Daz Studio user. So let me give you a quick overview for completeness. Poser and Daz Studio are 3d creation tools frequently used by the casual 3D artists including the majority of Western 3DX artists. Most of the art you see on this site was made with the use of either of these software programs as part of the production pipeline.
But before we can talk about Genesis we need to mention Victoria 4, the other girl. You may have heard of her. Victoria 4 is part of Daz’s Generation 4 figure system. Whilst 3D human figures are but one element in the world of high-end 3d modelling and rendering, for the consumer artist market the figure system is literally the center of the universe. And I say figure system because this girl comes with baggage. Lots and lots of baggage. There are some assets like environments, furniture and props which can be used universally, however the big market is in figure specific content like poses, expression, clothes, hair, accessories, etc.
So when a new figure system does come around it’s always a big event because it means getting rid of the old assets and replacing them with new.
Victoria and Genesis have history
Genesis in Daz Studio 4 (Featured as MotD 10)
But there’s a little more to this story than Victoria handing over the baton to Genesis. In fact Genesis has been around since 2011 and yet Victoria 4 is still going strong, likely still the most popular 3d figure around. Well, there is a good reason for that, we’ll have to go back in time a little so I can explain.
First there was Poser created back in 1995. Then in 1998 came along Renderosity a community built by and for Poser users, which later established a market around digital content and finally in 2000 Zygote, later renamed Daz3d started creating figures and content for Poser. Well, things have changed somewhat since then. Poser is still doing software and Renderosity still runs it’s market place, but Daz 3D has created a virtual monopoly in the 3d figure space and since then branched out into both 3d software with a product called Daz Studio as well it’s own 3d content market.
So is Daz3D the winner? When it comes to figures yes, but good old Poser has it’s base and that became apparent when in 2011 Daz3D boldly released Genesis without any Poser support. Unheard of for previous versions of the figure and unthinkable too I might add. But now Daz3D obviously felt strong enough to take Poser head on. Maybe they were even hoping for a big shift, but Poser released Poser 9 / 2012 around the same time which solidified their user base.
Genesis effectively divided the two camps and created a rift so deep there was no more Poser and Daz Studio user’s holding hands, if you wanted Genesis you had to leave Poser for good and if you didn’t you made do with Victoria 4… until now.
So what does Genesis have to offer?
Well it’s odd to speak of Genesis as a new figure system because she’s been around for this long, but for lots of Poser users this is a completely new experience. Genesis and by extension Victoria 5 is the new girl on the block and Daz3D is obviously doing everything it can to spread the word. It’s in their interest to focus on their new technology and sell more related digital content. And given the fact that Poser is still deeply entrenched in Victoria 4 world I’m sure Daz is loving the fact that Poser users need to get their hands on shiney new Genesis content, most of which lives at Daz3d of course.
There are a number interesting improvements that may warrant a switch. The key factor is that Generis is a unimesh figure, this means that Victoria 5, Micheal 5 and all other generation 5 figures share the same base mesh. This allows for interesting morph combinations as you can mix and match female, male or creature morphs all within the same figure system. There’s also better and smoother bending via tri-ax weight mapping and sub division. Genesis comes with a script to transfer body morphs to clothing and since Genesis has been around from some time there’s a lots of content already available for Poser users to dig into.
One feature that hasn’t made it across is collision detection and smoothing, which is a handy feature in Daz Studio which fixes clothing poke-throughs for example. Also it seems the script only transfers existing morphs, if you create your own custom morphs you have to resort to the old ways of creating morphs in the clothing.
Let’s take Genesis for a ride
Ok, not a really a test drive, just a first dip in the water to see if Genesis would even work. The installation involved downloading Daz3D’s new DSON importer as well as some essential Genesis content. You’re not required to have Daz Studio installed which is important to note. The installation was straightforward I chose to install to my current runtime but you could create a new separate runtime and kick off your Genesis related content collection.
And sure enough in the Daz People’s folder you’re greeted with Genesis as well as the basic male, female and kid versions. Genesis itself is just the plain grey shell, so I kicked things off with the basic female. She loaded equipped with a basic texture. She also comes with that magician outfit, some hair and poses and within a couple of minutes I had her all setup and ready for action.
Well not quite, going over the morphs, the list is sparse and whilst as expected the gens and nipples were missing, I did think it was rather amusing that she doesn’t even come with breast morphs, not one. Well that’s where my adventure came to an abrupt end 😀 So yes, Genesis is in dire need for a Victoria 5 upgrade and some new clothes, before she’s allowed to come out of hiding.
Poser and Genesis: a happy ending?
Ok here’s my opinion on how I see Genesis evolving. There’s going to be a rush and a lot of buzz around Poser users discovering the new figure system Victoria 5 in particular. Daz needs to be ready to hold Poser user’s hands during the transition. Looking at their quick responses to enquiries in the forums and a well timed discount on current Genesis figure bundles it seems they have in usual Daz3D style planned this out intricately. In any case I’m not concerned about Daz3D even though they may have alienated some of the Poser crowd with their tactical Genesis move last year. Daz has the monopoly on the old as well as the new figure system, so they’re sitting pretty with a solid user base regardless of how things go.
Smith Micro (creators of Poser) should be happy on the one hand, given the fact that Genesis is available for Poser means that there’s a clear path for content creators to move on to the latest figure without fear of having to go Daz Studio exclusive. Yes, there’s a strong Victoria 4 market and will be for some time, but without new developments in the figure market things would have stagnated eventually. Where does this leave Tylor and Miki 4, new figures created by Smith Micro, unfortunately very likely a lukewarm response. It’s not even the quality of the figures this time, it’s just that in terms of the figure market everything’s stacked in favor of Daz at this late stage in the game.
But what about the Poser and Daz Studio users? For Poser users the next few months is critical, if Genesis lives up to expectation and Daz3D maintains support, a large chunk of Poser users will move across and with it the content makers and eventually the skeptics.
And there are a lot of skeptics with good reason. Moving to a new figure means a lot spending and the last thing you want is having all your old content go to waste. And a lot of artists are just happy with the way Victoria 4 works and don’t need or want to change a good workflow.
One thing to note is that it’s absolutely critical that Poser as well as other companies like Renderosity, Runtime DNA and of course our beloved Renderotica remain in tact, because even though Daz3D has brought about an incredible list of innovations and our favorite figures bar none, the worst thing that could happen is a fully Daz3D controlled digital content monopoly.
Without competition it would mean the rule of the prudes, obviously for my taste Daz’s restrictions on nudity are just way too clean cut and surely this would mean a decrease in innovation as well as soaring prices, which Daz3D is already showcasing with some Genesis content and I’m sure none of us starving artists want that 😀
All in all I see a steady move to Genesis. I personally will wait for a while, as Victoria 4 has still lots of life in her yet and works well in my current work flow. Eventually I will move across some of the morphs to see how Victoria 5 copes.
How about you? Are you sticking with Victoria 4 or moving on to Genesis/ Victoria 5? Let us know in the comments below.
~ArgonCyanide777
June 29, 2014As someone who has other Smith Micro products I am of a mind to go for poser. I see RWBY and think of my own characters. Maybe not animated like that, mind you but still I think you get the point.
And yet I have no content and am not facing a dilemma. I’ve installed Daz and, for what limited things I can get done with it before it crashes (ho-hum), it seems user friendly and easy enough to use.
What I am seeing (brilliant marketing on the part of Daz) are a ton of bundles and package deals especially meant for people like myself who are looking at first base characters. Yet I know Daz doesn’t ultimately want what I really want to do, which is make erotic adult content.
So, strapped for cash I am faced with a different dilemma: do I buy into older content more spread out (higher $ per thing), or do I go with bundle deals for new content that doesn’t have naughty bits and wait until they arrive?
That’s just my view on the matter. However I’d like to thank you, Miro, for this article. It gives some insight and information to help me sort out what I may or may not want to buy in the future–whatever route I decide to go.
Dan Vochin
October 24, 2012Hey everyone, great post!
What are the pros/cons of each the cloth-fitting features from latest Daz & Poser apps?
The Inflater
October 24, 2012I don’t see any crucial advantages to move from my currently huge and therefore expensive V4-library to Genesis. The only advantage would be the smooth morphs between different figures. To be honest: I would rarely use that feature. When we come to clothes: They are easy fixed in Poser using the extremely versatile »Morph brush« (or in my case using external tools like »modo«).
Aside from that: Content for Genesis is NOT a bit hard to find … compared to what exists for V4 it is simply inexistant (probably 95% to 5%).
Let’s have a look at the »one mesh for all« thing. That sounds interesting – and admitted Daz3D did an absolute great job in delivering – but for me it’s the wrong path. Male and female figures differ too much from each other to be reflected in one mesh. V5 for example suffer from the same problems in bending her legs and arms as V4 – probably more. You simply don’t get a better looking girl when using Genesis/V5.
And for Poser users it IS NOT necessary to use V3/M3/V4/M4/Genesis/V5/M5/Whatever6: They have a library packed with – well not great – but good looking figures. For example the old »James« of Poser 6 is most of the time very much all what you need to show a male figure in your scene. And there are few add-ons for stock-Poser-figures but they exist. I like to point out »Anastasia«, the Alyson-Add-On which simply look terrible good. The currently free male »Tyler GND« figure looks also terrible good. Not to mention the different free figures and add-ons like community-project »Antonia«, the terrible good looking »Apollo Maximus« and »Weight mapped V4«. When digging a bit deeper, there are countless free figures out there.
Why I say all this? Easy: There is completely NO NEED to change to Genesis. Two years ago many of the above advantages did not exist and there was a need. Today is a complete different story. There in only »need« to change to Genesis: Because Daz3D has a fanbase and they do a good job in marketing-blabla. When it comes to real advantages there are very few.
MysticX
October 23, 2012I’ve been using Genesis quite a lot since release (I am a Daz Studio user since i got started in 3DX back in the late V3 days), and i really like the flexibility Genesis offers, Daz Studio also has an morph follower-system which allows V4 clothes to automatically conform and follow the morphs of Genesis characters, even with mixed morphs. (Downside is that dresses and skirts lose movement handles though)
Finding 3DX things for Genesis is a bit harder, since the 3D community in general and content-creators in particular are very attached to Poser, so here’s hoping that Poser-compatibility leads to more items becoming available to Genesis…
miro
October 20, 2012I agree the last thing you want to do is drop everything and join the genesis band wagon. My current pipeline involves V4 and these things aren’t changed on a whim. I’ll work with V5 in my “spare time”, I’ll probably move one (or create a new ) character across eventually and if anything it’s likely that V4 + V5 will share scenes for some time yet. Maybe V5 deserves a virtual spanking from V4 😀
Dan Vochin
October 22, 2012Hi Miro, I’m curious when you mention your workflow/pipeline if some of the reasons V4 is still really useful for many people is because the new technology in V5 is only available when not exporting to external tools for editing (like 3dsMax which I assume has no way to know how to modify the mesh with the new techniques for Genesis in DAZ)
Do you think for people like us (building adult game on Unity game engine) that V4 is the way to go because V5 won’t give anything extra and V4 has way more content?
Thanks! Dan,
miro
October 22, 2012Well yes if you need content V4 has a lot more of that currently. It’ll take a while for V5 to get to where V4 is. Just check that you’re good to go in terms of the licensing. And PM me some info on the game you’re working 🙂
render8
October 17, 2012Nice and informative post Miro. Me? I’m just going to continue sticking it out with V4. I know she’s got a lot of problems of her own, but I think I’ve been fixing her up so many times for so long, it’s almost like second nature to correct bends and whatnot. There’s really been nothing that has made me want to jump ship to swim to Genesis. I don’t even know if I ever will. Way too much invested in Vicky 4, and she fits my workflow perfectly. Just my preference. I’m really just not getting over excited about Genesis coming to Poser.
Uncle Sickey
October 17, 2012Personally I’ll wait a year or so; I’ve been burned far too many times in the past with ‘new figures’ that get no support (S3P, S4P, Luke and Laura, etc.). I hope the V5 figure gains traction on Poser; but like Miro said; V4 still has lots of life left in her yet!
And if you wait a bit; let everyone else be unpaid quality control for you; so when you do get it, all the bugs will be ironed out.
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fredfred5150
October 17, 2012Interesting read, even if I didn’t understand the more tech-centric aspects of the post.
But I would say that any early adopters of new tech are always taking a BIG gamble, think of the people who bought HD-DVD players who were left with useless boxes when sony eventually won the HD war with their blu-ray system.
Dan Vochin
October 17, 2012@matthacker:
Thanks for taking the time… I just did another scan on Renderosity and Renderotica last night and indeed it seems strange how few Genesis quality content there is at this later stage in the game… Obviously the greatest content providers are still ‘skeptics’?
From your words of “V4 have a lot more support on weight mapped figures” does that mean that the part of the figure technology that I can use (such as exported to 3dsMax or Unity) is strict weight mapped stuff implying that the newer Genesis technologies would not import into the game engine?
If so then V5 would have very little more to offer to the deliverable we have to build in Unity, then V42 figure mesh with content would be the clear winner?
Thanks again! 🙂
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matthacker
October 17, 2012Well, I’m thinking the small support for Genesis is mainly due to learning curve with both the figure and the new app, logistics from having to support both Genesis and Gen4 plus the time and effort to support both. There is that DS vs Poser thing, but I think vendors tend to look things more realistically.
Don’t have much time with Genesis and many of her clothing/items, but I think importing it into 3DSMax or Unity should not be a problem. License doesn’t seem to be an issue, at least for the figure. FBX support have been improved with DS4.5, but it works regardless of the figure.
What I mean by support is that you generally can find support for V4 much easier than say, Genesis or Alyson/Tyler/Miki4. That includes vagina and anus (don’t think there’s an anus for Genesis). I have to say though, without corrective products, V4 hips is a nightmare to work with for sex scenes.
matthacker
October 16, 2012@Dan,
I will say if you already have V4, that’s the best bet. V4 have a lot more support than Genesis or weight mapped figures for Poser9/2012.
About royalty fees, if I remember correctly, DAZ applies the same rules for V4 and Genesis – basically you only get DAZ original content. You need to ask vendors for their own license.
Dan Vochin
October 16, 2012Hi and thanks for that insightful post… We’ve been trying to gauge how this industry that shapes our work so much is going with this DAZ/Poser split. The next few months will shake the industry that’s for sure…
We’re experienced 3DX game developers making an new adult video game. We’re attempting to make sense of this latest DAZ/Poser shift and are attempting to gauge the best technology for our game between Vic4.2 and the new Genesis/Vic5…
Essentially we’re trying to determine which figure technology to base our work on in order to benefit from not only great content but also invest in figure technology that will keep evolving…
(As our game runs out of the fancy Daz/Poser skinning engine, we don’t expect the latest wizz-bange techniques to make elbow and knee bends look nice, but instead have to guage each technology by how ‘usable’ the bone rigging works when bones are rotated in a 3D app like Max or the Unity game engine.
With this shift, what do you think is the ‘best platform’ to adopt for a future oriented technology with great content?
Given the content & figure capabilities for Vic42 or Genesis, which you integrate in a game engine?
Finally (if there are differences), which do you think is more suitable from a royalty / licensing viewpoint?
Thanks for those amazing posts!!
Dan
miro
October 20, 2012If you want to go the Max/ Maya/ Unity route, FBX is your best bet, which is currently only supported by Daz Studio (another misstep by Poser).
I don’t think there are licensing differences for V4 and Genesis, but I do know that you will require a special license for interactive content like games, anything that is not pre-rendered.
If you’re only going for rigging you probably want to go with Genesis, because this figure is by default a low-poly model and ought to be the more advanced rig.
If you need content like clothes, etc to go with the figure then V4 has a lot more going for it currently and for a while yet. But you’d need to look into the licensing arrangements with vendors.
MongoBongo
October 16, 2012Oh nice. Though it’s still classic DAZ tactics. Base stuff is cheap, all the add-ons to have useable functionality is where they rape you. A quick cost tally of all the morphs alone (V5, M5, Creature, Muscularity, etc) makes it an expensive proposition just for that. Then (like you said) there’s character textures, hair, clothing models. Fuck that. I’ll just stick with V4 until they make a V6 which they will hopefully make Poser-useable out of the gate. (I’m not a big fan of Daz3D.)
miro
October 20, 2012I agree, Daz isn’t shy about asking for cash 🙂 Rightly so to a large degree, they are innovators without question, but if you see some of the prices on electronic clothing approach prices of real world items then you have to wonder. So it’s good to be able to fall back to V4 where there’s a lot more competition and variety. Hopefully with the Poser crowd joining in this will change for Genesis as well.
kyla
October 16, 2012i’m a noob 3dx artist too (3 years around, never published anything though)…
My opinion is that poser as a program is still too complete compared to daz3d….
But i really loved the engine that conform clothes in daz studio 4, is THE thing i really miss in poser… ok there’s the clothes room but is nothing compared to the conforming eninge in daz4.
however, the main problem are the shoes that can not be used, something that is crucial for my taste and is making me wait to upgrade to V5
miro
October 20, 2012yeah Poser needs improve the way conforming clothes actually conform and fast 🙂
so you’re saying V5 doesn’t have any nice shoes? poor thing 🙁